I want to update korean translation for your mod, but i can't understand correct steps about 'paste text on discussion'. Is here a right place?
When i provide(- it's not rude, maybe is it?) translation, i send an email(google).
Could you guide a definite way or maybe your email address?

Hi eastnormal, I opened another topic for that.

Nice and necessary addition to the base game! I'm conflicted by the changes for 1.9 though. On one hand this mod using the new travel mechanic is great and adds an extra 'roleplay element'. However imho it also breaks historical immersion.

AFAIK traveling (especially long distances) at that time was quite unusual, and elective at that (e.g. a zealous pilgrimage). If a man of (high) nobility needed to parlay with the pope, in all but the most rare circumstances, he would be likely to do so by sending a messenger, emissary etc.

This is not only because of the very real dangers on the road (e.g. Richard I of England) but also due to the perilous consequences of leaving your realm unattended for so long (in-game roundtrip from Paris to Rome takes ~ 9 months. That's an eternity in how many plots and external dangers could appear in a ruler's realm).

All that is to say, could we please get a game rule to make the travel part of this superb mod optional? :)

Hi Seneca, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. I see your point and tend to agree.

Instead of just abolishing the travel aspect by game rule, though, what do you think about a second option, allowing you to petition the Head of Faith?

And what do you think, if the letter writing approach would then come with a few disadvantages like 20% more Piety cost, only one candidate who is of HoF's culture group (and, perhaps, which papal provision cannot be declined after your request)?

My knowledge of the medieval world and it's daily life is quite superficial, so for example I don't know if a secular ruler like a Count would have even considered approaching his Pope to have a different bishop appointed (or if he would just have done so without consent and what the consequences would have been - instant excommunication?) and if he did, would he choose to go for a private audience to increase his chances or would the written word be valued just as much by a pope.

But I am with you, that it feels unusual to me as well to travel, e.g. 2 years from Norway to Rome to replace a bishop.

Hi Feivel, I much appreciate the fast reply!

Your idea with the letter and the ensuing disadvantages therein for balance (and increased realism) sounds really great. I figure you nailed it with that combo (piety, culture and no choice/refusal option).

Also I think you are right, in that petitioning the Pope for favors would have likely been vastly more difficult as low nobility (baron/count) compared to a mighty king or emperor. What do you think would be a good way to model that in-game though? Perhaps not visiting in person would chance a risk of having a minor noble's request completely ignored (while still incurring the piety cost and decision timeout)? Or perhaps they would have to also spend money (lavish gifts) in addition to a piety expense to get noticed by 'His Holyness'?

Anyways it's nice to find another who highly values the immersion aspect in-game

I already implemented the selection widget into the Decision widget (basically copied how it is done with the "Pay Homage"-Decision), so there are now two options "Send Petition" and "Seek Audience" (maybe there could be a third option "Send Emissary").

Could it be that in reality if you happened to be a Count or a Duke, the King would appoint a Bishop without you having a say in it? If you read about Duke of Bavaria and Angria, Henry the Lion, it reads like he was a great exception in gaining the right to invest his own Bishops.

It seems like, over the centuries, Kings insisted on an ancient royal right of appointment and the church reluctantly rolled with it and there was this ongoing conflict between the state and the church up until a couple refomer Popes pressed for absolutist papacy and the right of papal provision which eventually led to the Investiture Controversy:

Originally posted by Encyclopedia:

Investiture contest. Name given by historians to the conflicts which ensued when 11th-cent. church reformers, popes like Gregory VII (1073–85) at their head, tried to free the church from its customary subordination to the secular world. To reformers that subordination was symbolized by the investiture ceremony in which a new bishop or abbot received the staff or ring of office from the hands of the lay ruler, who had in practice appointed him. On the other side, rulers wanted to be sure of the loyalty of churchmen who controlled rich estates.

What do you think, in general, since we are bypassing the doctrine, that having your bishop replaced comes with a temporary modifier named "Simoniac" that gives an oppinion penalty (e.g. -20 for 5 years) to every character who has the vassal stance "Zealot" (I think those are mostly Bishops)? I am not a 100% sure if the term is correct, but basically we are buying our own Bishop with Piety and Gold, so other Bishops may think of us as a simoniac, couldn't they? Our new Bishop could get a counter modifier "Beneficiant", since he probably wouldn't mind?
(Although said "Simoniac"-modifier would only effect him if he was a Prince-Bishop, so a landed character and ergo a vassal of ours, anyway)

Regarding your mention of possible failure, I would like to add a Game Rule to allow for that in general (I remember that a few people asked for it). I don't know if that should be exclusive to low nobility though.

If you allow the question, are you by any chance a native English speaker? Because that is one of the big problems I run into, since my English is not good enough to write the localization, but without that one I won't be able to push such big updates.

Thanks to Keizer, I now have a, very basic, yet great working character picker. So since I learned a little bit more about the whole investiture topic and that secular rulers seemingly loved to appoint people close to them, there is now the opportunity to instantly trigger an event after you chose your method of approach and then pick someone close to you as your own candidate. (Not to have that candidate instantly appointed. There should still be somehow a request for papal approval)

I just need to learn how to build / filter the best possible list (capable adult, not landed, possibly close or extended family member, legal clergy gender, positive opinion, not married or betrothed, not excommunicated or otherwise criminal, maybe not in anyone's council, probably no heir to anyone). If the list counts 0, I could still create a new random character, I guess.

I mean, it's nothing that inevitably has to be implemented, but it feels like that would be at least a small step closer to the historical reality.

That's fabulous. I really like the idea, that as a ruler you can choose to go the time-honored tradition of nepotism ( which comes along with significant maluses like the "Simoniac" modifier) - or go the route of asking the Pope for a properly seminary educated clergy (with likely much better skills). Based on what you wrote, both of those would be equally historically plausible options as well. Great stuff!

In regards to the lower nobels, you're right, they probably wouldn't have had the gravitas to even think about replacing the reigning (arch)bishop in their area. However their in-game 'realm priest' equivalent would have likely been more 'down to earth' clergy like a regular priest. Replacing such a 'nobody' would have certainly been within their power.

Also from what I've seen so far, you don't possess any inadequacies with English proficiency my friend, and should be fully confident in your abilities! But by all means, if you want someone to touch base with vis-a-vis some localization, give me a holla. I'll be glad to help if I can

Thank you very much for getting yourself involved in sharing your thoughts and knowledge, that's very helpful and motivating. I'm still trying to figure things out.

So the story goes: We want a different Bishop, because we are on bad terms, but we don't want to go to the extreme of having him murdered and we also want or need to respect the papal authority by getting Rome involved and seeking approval. Since the deposal of a Bishop is most serious business, we need to provide a compelling reason, true or invented, to justify papal intervention in the form of transfer, suspension or insistence on resignation, then followed by a papal provision in favour of a candidate of our choice (100% success if no Game Rule enabled which allows for the chance of rejection).

A few ideas for (valid) reasons or defamations I can come up with now are:

• poor administration (e.g. low Learning)
• sinful traits
• traits like Drunkard, Melancholic, Lunatic, Possessed, Infirm
• blind or incapable (option to have him harmed if player has suitable trait) [1]
• homosexual/bisexual [2]
  
• embezzled church funds
  
• trafficking in masses (the saying of masses for money) / idolatry of gold (Greedy trait)
  
• practice of fortune-telling, palm reading, tarot cards

[1]: In 927 Benno von Einsiedeln was invested as Bishop of Metz by Heinrich I., but soon after "attacked and blinded by the disgruntled people of his diocese, and in 929 he resigned his office"
[2]: "Marco Bisceglia: Suspended in 1975 for performing a blessing of gay catholic couple."

(Maybe you have reasons in mind as well which are missing?)

Order of events:
"Send Petition" -> Event with 3 options ("Propose Candidate" | "Canonical Candidate" | "Changed my mind") -> Letter travels at 50km a day to Rome -> Papal Decision -> Letter travels at 50km a day to your capital -> Letter Event -> Closing Event

"Seek Audience" -> Event with 3 options ("Propose Candidate" | "Canonical Candidate" | "Changed my mind") -> Travel with your candidate to Rome -> Audience -> Travel back -> Closing Event

Then there should be a new Game Rule with 4 options to set the chance of failure both in terms of a possibility of being presented with candidates that come with an even lower Learning than your Realm Priest in question, as well as the chance of papal refusal .

Well, I hope to have a basic first version up by this weekend, and maybe you find some time to take a look and provide some feedback.

Glad to hear it. The funny thing is, from originally asking for a small change, the scope of the revision has since ballooned rather considerably through adding a plethora of new features and immersion elements. That's all been spearheaded by your relentless enthusiasm, which I really appreciate!

Yeah all of those; the feature summary, justification for dismissal, 'order of events' and game rules sounds like exactly what we'd want. Hmmm what do you think about incorporating into the game rules that a papally appointed realm priest would have a better chance of high learning, good traits etc. if you're a high noble (king or emperor) compared to e.g. a lowly count?

Suggestions for new traits worthy of dismissal:
Excommunicated, Witch, Deviant, Cannibal, Murderer, Cynical?, Slow/Homely negative level 3 trait?, Leper/Bubonic Plague?, if combo of both Lisp and Stuttering?
Sorry if I'm giving you too many ^^
Not sure if a bishop could conceivably even get all of these though?

I'd also suggest modifying the piety cost depending on the justification you select. For example really bad traits (as in causing a grave scandal, which was a big deal back then) like Deviant, Witch, Excommunicated, Cannibal, Murderer? etc. should probably make the replacement cost almost free ("Begone Satanist!" etc.) - if we want to fully follow immersion.

A couple questions:
-I can't remember if vanilla CK3 already gives you the option to or automatically replaces a realm priest if they have some bad traits (like excommunicated perhaps?)
-Did you think to base the "homosexual/bisexual" reason on just having that sexual orientation - or being caught in a scandal (like being a known sodomite (trait))?
-Do you base the "embezzled church funds" and "fortune telling etc." on some in-game trait, or are they the invented reasons you mentioned before?
-Just a tiny nitpick, but not sure if Melancholic would be a good justification for dismissal?
-I assume a modded religion with extra sinful and virtuous traits would still have all of it's traits recognized by this mod (and ditto with a custom religion)?

Anyways, I'm really looking forward to the Farewell Chaplain 2.0!

Hi, so it looks like, if your Realm Priest happens to get Excommunicated, he will automatically be revoked from his council position immediately. If it's a Prince-Bishop, he will still keep his landed titles. Mine immediately undertook a pilgrimage to Cologne and got lifted from his Excommunication by the Pope a couple of months later lol. When I killed off his successor, he was first in line to be (re)appointed as my Realm Priest.

I did not test a whole lot of other "red" traits, but it looks like the ones that are considered criminal will keep him in office, although you'll get the option to have him arrested, which would probaby be the cheaper way for a player to get rid of him. "Witch" was definitely one of these criminal traits (for Catholics).

I do also not know if clerics happen to be able to gain all kind of different bad traits over time.

Regarding the "homosexual/bisexual" reason, it could probably be based on both, while the Sodomite trait could provide the true, ergo stronger argument (like he himself was seen or it is known that he blessed a gay couple), the orientation could justify there being a rumour.

I mean, we could probably come up with an explanation on why we think a disposal is necessary based on almost any trait if we'd think hard enough. (for example Melancholic: If God is hope and light, how come his servant is surrounded by darkness and pessimistic. Maybe that made him being disliked by the community and it interferes with his ability of shepherding; a Drunkard could be choleric and been witnessed relieving himself against the wall of the church or breaking the seal of confession on multiple occasions)

To have justifications serve as additional modifiers for costs is also a nice suggestion, although it should still cost a fair amount (I don't want the mod to feel cheaty and it's still bypassing a doctrine/mechanic). Piety level could also be a factor in general, but first I have to focus on the, to me, more complicated things.

At least, building lists is no misty mistery to me anymore, so that should be of good help to the process. I am currently trying to figure out how to implement the justification idea. Do we want to be able to select from as many possible arguments as are available (trait based) or would it be enough to get one truthful statement (if one exists) and one rumourish, invented one by random selection. The former mentioned would probably be best implemented in a widget (which how to build I would also have to learn first), because otherwise, if you would like to toggle available options, the Event would need to be reloaded after every click, which is kind of annoying.

But my biggest problem is still the creative writing part. It's hard enough for me to come up with some interesting, good formulated sentences in my own language, if any :D

Thank you for all the info, that's interesting. Well my point with in regards to bigger piety cost reductions was that certain traits (i.e. satanic/ very sinful practices) would have been so condemned that the pope would been expected to replace someone like that by default - and a large discount specifically for those very few 'exceptional situations' wouldn't feel 'cheaty' per se.

For the justification, how about using the stress threshold decision from vanilla ck3? That might be a good blueprint, seeing as it also deals with selecting from a plethora of possibilities - purely based on the PC's traits and so forth - and automatically narrows it down to 3 options, based on priority lists.

Regarding the loc, as I already mentioned - feel free to DM me if you want assistance with that.

Please excuse my late response, I had no spare time at all during the week.

I went with your suggestion to have justifications narrowed down to 3 options beginning with the powerful arguments (Infamy traits that are criminal in faith), followed by potentially fairly strong arguments (Infamy traits that are shunned in faith plus traits like Drunkard, Profligate, etc.) and then the weak arguments which are based on rumours or lies (e.g. sexual orientation, sinful traits, maybe weak skill values, whatever).

The system seems to be working well (I only need to add quite a few more traits now like the non-Infamy ones you mentioned).

It's no fancy GUI, but it's still a nice way to handle the issue, I guess.

Now I have to write the evaluation effect to determine the outcome of our request with the 3 different tiers of argument strength serving as the main modifier.

Medium modifiers could be Opinion and level of Piety, as well a choosing Audience instead of Letter.

Smaller scale modifiers could be
Letter: Quality of writing (negative if no Chancellor / positive if court Poet)
Audience: Diplomacy skill (level of speech, maybe traits like Lisp/Stuttering)

Maybe sinful/virtue traits.

If that is working properly, then it's just almost grunt work only that's left (adjustments, adding all justifications, the option to have the Realm Priest harmed if PC traits allow for that, rework of character generation, adding the delay for Letter delivery) plus of course the localization stuff.

Are you familiar on how to manually install mods, so I could provide you with a Dropbox-link when the mod is ready for a first look? It will still take me a little bit more time though.

Appreciate the detailed explanation, sounds real comprehensive - looking forward to seeing how it all comes together!

Yeah the mods I use are all installed/created in folder format - and frequently tweaked with. Dropbox should be fine, or you could also release a 'beta' version on the paradox site, if that's easier.

Uploading on Paradox as beta sounds like a good idea.

The author of the letter is now chosen from among Court Poet, Chancellor, Spouse and PC based on the character with highest Learning, which factors in as the quality of writing. (From worsening to increasing the chance of success)

I am also considering to change the classification of the justification argument strength from the 3 flags "strong", "medium" and "weak" to a numerical value as well, so that every argument could have a slightly more individual power and especially a fabricated argument's power could be depending on something like Intrigue (or a combination of Skills), instead of just being this "weak" marked constant.

Do you have any thoughts on the balance of the outcome evaluation?

Do you think it should just be 3 factors (Argument Strength, Letter Quality/Eloquence and Opinion) or should Piety Level and maybe number of Sinful/Virtue traits also play into it?

What should be the success chance for both extremes:
A highly skilled author working with a powerful argument, approaching a Head of Faith with a high opinion.
A poor author working with a weak argument, writing to a HoF with a highly negative opinion.

It's probably more like 90 to 10 percent, leaving a rest chance, instead of 100 to 0?

I also just remembered that there should be a (small) bonus for characters who chose the audience.