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Total War: SHOGUN 2

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Total War: SHOGUN 2 > Dyskusje ogólne > Szczegóły wątku
Golbez 18 stycznia o 20:05
Vassals Don't Seem Worth It. Advice?
First campaign, no vassals. Went decently well and finished.

Second campaign, finished but HOLY MOLY was I annoyed by these stupid vassals betraying me. Given in mind, I didn't grab a vassal until after realm divide had happened so I thought I was safe but no, one-by-one it was betrayal. I had to backtrack a few squads and then blitz down a few more lands to win.

For what reason should I have a vassal if they're just going to stab me in the back no matter where in the game I'm at? The last 2-3 pieces of land you need?

Thoughts or advice are welcome.
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Kliknij tutaj, aby przejść do tego posta.
Początkowo opublikowane przez BastardSword:
First of all, any vassals you make before you become shogun will be hit with the realm divide diplomacy penalty once realm divide starts. If you wait until after you become shogun to make vassals, then they get a much milder penalty against you, and there's still a chance that they will eventually turn on you.

Personally I do not think that vassals are ever worth it at all. Before realm divide there's always a decent chance that they will turn on you, and if they don't then there's a good chance that they'll take a bunch of land which triggers realm divide way earlier than you want it to, because their land counts as your land.

Yes you get a small money payment from the vassal and a captive trade partner but it's not worth it when the vassal can completely upend your campaign at any time.

The only time I will ever make a vassal is if I am at war with clan A, and have defeated their last army, and clan B has just declared war on me. I make clan A my vassal so they at least stay off my back for a while, and then I go deal with clan B. But I do this knowing that clan A will eventually turn on me or get taken over by another clan.

But usually I will just make peace with clan A and not make them my vassal, because clan A is so weak that they'll probably be taken over by another clan.

Once you are shogun then it's safer to make vassals but as I said there is still a good chance that they will turn on you. I would rather control their land and not have to worry about being backstabbed when I need to deal with the other clans on the map. Once I am shogun I have plenty of money so I don't need payments from vassals or trade with them. Someone will probably come in here and say that you can just pay your vassals massive amounts of money after realm divide to keep them happy with you so you can trade with them but that is surely not worth it.
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Wyświetlanie 1-15 z 26 komentarzy
YaFilthy 18 stycznia o 23:27 
its best to only have 1 vassal usually one that pushes the map east or west... make sure you vassal with diplomacy to get better -stats...
#1
Autor oznaczył ten post jako odpowiedź na oryginalny wątek.
BastardSword 19 stycznia o 2:09 
First of all, any vassals you make before you become shogun will be hit with the realm divide diplomacy penalty once realm divide starts. If you wait until after you become shogun to make vassals, then they get a much milder penalty against you, and there's still a chance that they will eventually turn on you.

Personally I do not think that vassals are ever worth it at all. Before realm divide there's always a decent chance that they will turn on you, and if they don't then there's a good chance that they'll take a bunch of land which triggers realm divide way earlier than you want it to, because their land counts as your land.

Yes you get a small money payment from the vassal and a captive trade partner but it's not worth it when the vassal can completely upend your campaign at any time.

The only time I will ever make a vassal is if I am at war with clan A, and have defeated their last army, and clan B has just declared war on me. I make clan A my vassal so they at least stay off my back for a while, and then I go deal with clan B. But I do this knowing that clan A will eventually turn on me or get taken over by another clan.

But usually I will just make peace with clan A and not make them my vassal, because clan A is so weak that they'll probably be taken over by another clan.

Once you are shogun then it's safer to make vassals but as I said there is still a good chance that they will turn on you. I would rather control their land and not have to worry about being backstabbed when I need to deal with the other clans on the map. Once I am shogun I have plenty of money so I don't need payments from vassals or trade with them. Someone will probably come in here and say that you can just pay your vassals massive amounts of money after realm divide to keep them happy with you so you can trade with them but that is surely not worth it.
#2
BastardSword 19 stycznia o 2:11 
So to sum up yes I would say vassals are not worth the bother. The diplomacy system is very basic but also very cut-throat in Shogun 2 and the vassal system reflects this. In later total war games it's a lot easier to keep vassals, and they aren't guaranteed to turn on you after a certain point.
#3
Tenshi 19 stycznia o 6:30 
Vassals are similar to alliances. Mostly not useful, unless you have a very specific (often counter-intuitive) reason to go for one. I mostly make vassals to boost my honour in a location where they hopefully die asap.
#4
easytarget 20 stycznia o 12:00 
We've hashed this before, rather than re-type this I'll just leave a link to one of the last times I responded on this: https://gtm.you1.cn/app/34330/discussions/0/1694917906668829014/
#5
MFD Suraj 20 stycznia o 17:08 
i usually make collection of vassals, and when i have too many i kill the surplus.
#6
captainducko 21 stycznia o 0:32 
They're not worth it economically, but they help delay realm divide and give you honor. Honor is a precious resource.
#7
BastardSword 21 stycznia o 20:11 
Początkowo opublikowane przez captainducko:
They're not worth it economically, but they help delay realm divide and give you honor. Honor is a precious resource.

Honor is nice but every time a vassal takes a new province it pushes you closer to realm divide. Often they will take advantage of your strength and go out and take over a bunch of provinces very quickly and then trigger realm divide and then they declare war on you along with everyone else.
#8
BastardSword 21 stycznia o 20:11 
Początkowo opublikowane przez MFD Suraj:
i usually make collection of vassals, and when i have too many i kill the surplus.

Now everyone hates you because you turned on your vassal, and you now have less honor which also makes everyone hate you more. Oops.
#9
captainducko 21 stycznia o 20:17 
Początkowo opublikowane przez BastardSword:
Początkowo opublikowane przez captainducko:
They're not worth it economically, but they help delay realm divide and give you honor. Honor is a precious resource.

Honor is nice but every time a vassal takes a new province it pushes you closer to realm divide. Often they will take advantage of your strength and go out and take over a bunch of provinces very quickly and then trigger realm divide and then they declare war on you along with everyone else.

I could have sworn realm divide is when you directly control 22 provinces. Vassals contribute to RD? What actually triggers RD on domination?
#10
easytarget 22 stycznia o 8:16 
Is this a trick question? Or isn't the answer fame?
#11
BastardSword 22 stycznia o 13:46 
Początkowo opublikowane przez captainducko:
I could have sworn realm divide is when you directly control 22 provinces. Vassals contribute to RD? What actually triggers RD on domination?

What triggers Realm Divide is filling up the fame bar to max.

Each province you own contributes to filling up the fame bar. Provinces held by vassals contributes to your fame bar but at a slightly lesser amount than provinces you directly control.

Having higher daimyo honor will raise the fame bar but I think this is pretty minor because fame caps out at like 5 or 6 stars IIRC.

Another thing that contributes is the number of heroic battles that you win. I'm not entirely sure what the name of this kind of victory is, but it's when you get a statue on the map after the battle. Each of these victories contributes a little bit to raising the fame bar.

In a domination campaign I would say that 90% of the time I trigger realm divide when I have 21 provinces, but sometimes it is 22 or 23 because I didn't win many heroic battles. Sometimes it triggers at 19 or 20 because I won a lot of them.

There was a topic here about the fame bar not that long ago but I can't find it. Maybe someone else can find it or give better info about the fame bar factors.
#12
BastardSword 22 stycznia o 13:48 
Here we go, a post by markeason which explains it way better than I can:

https://gtm.you1.cn/app/34330/discussions/0/4414173228277912252/

Fame points are:

Short Campaign: 6 points per province owned
Long campaign: 5 points per province owned
Domination campaign: 4 points per province owned
(If playing on Easy difficulty, these values are 1 point lower)

Vassal: 4 points for each vassal owned province

Daimyo Honour: 1 point per Honour point (max 10 points)
Famous victory (Landmarked): 3 points per victory (max 10 points, so first 4 landmarked victories gives max value of 10 fame points)
Famous defeat (landmarked): -3 points per victory (max -10 points, so first 4 landmarked defeats gives max value of -10 fame points)

Legendary Building (each of the 10 top tier buildings): 1 point per Legendary building (max 10 points)


Most points come from provinces owned, but be aware of vassals snowballing as that can trigger RD for you when you are not expecting it.

You lose fame points when you lose a province and regain the points when you retake it.

Edit: Forgot to say, RD is triggered when you reach 100 points. You get the messages about increased fame as you pass through 25, 50 and 75 points.
Ostatnio edytowany przez: BastardSword; 22 stycznia o 13:49
#13
easytarget 22 stycznia o 14:15 
Btw, where has this guy been hiding himself?

We need to do a wellness check on markeason.
#14
MFD Suraj 22 stycznia o 17:58 
Początkowo opublikowane przez BastardSword:
Początkowo opublikowane przez MFD Suraj:
i usually make collection of vassals, and when i have too many i kill the surplus.

Now everyone hates you because you turned on your vassal, and you now have less honor which also makes everyone hate you more. Oops.

Nah , i never be low with honor , and vassal never turn againt me (apart for the scripted ones , wich i often anyway vassal them) , i happend much more often with allies that turns aginst. But i figured out when should happen , and i prepare on time.
#15
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Total War: SHOGUN 2 > Dyskusje ogólne > Szczegóły wątku
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