Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader

Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader

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What is this game? Because whatever it is it isn't Rogue Trader.
So to preface this overly long critique, the reason I'm putting this on here is both to warn any ttrpg players who are looking for a simulation of their old game; minus their drunken ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ friends yelling at the dm across the table because plasma fire turned their femur into a pipebomb. And to ask what the fans of this sort of thing might want, other than this if anything.

I played the the Fantasy Flight ttrpgs over a decade ago, though mostly we played Black Crusade. And understand that the systems were broken ♥♥♥♥, they even had sidebars telling you to discount or modify systems, Rogue Trader being the least well conceptualized of the bunch. We did ultimately create a totally balanced homebrew system which could play at any level from Inquisitorial stooges scrounging around an underhive to warlords of Chaos burning sectors to the ground, but that was five years of work, mostly mine as I am cursed to be the eternal DM. So I understand that Owlcat wasn't exactly working with gold here but most of the design decisions in this utterly baffle me. So here are my thoughts and correct them if there is something later in the game that changes them.

1)Though it at first appears to be cover based it really isn't. The originals were based on gunplay, pinning tests elicited by suppressing fire. The only variable being very powerful but very risky magic. This game however is based almost entirely around cycling buffs, is despise this kind of game design but that's just a personal preference. What I'm asking is would anybody else have felt that "ballistic chess" would have both fit the setting better, been more enjoyable, and been far easier to balance than the system as it exists. Maybe I'm just old but non-magical buffs and debuffs applied by everybody has always made me furious since it was implemented in 4e because to my mind it makes no sense,. Sure yell at a guy so he can reroll his pinning test, or a fear test, or have 5% better aim but its kind of ridiculous when taken to the extremes here and is almost impossible to balance as the devs no doubt now realize.

2) The fights are not particularly hard on "unfair" difficultly even going in blind but they are mostly gimmick fights, which is very strange to me as most of the variety in this sort of wargame comes not from unique environmental puzzles or effects but the composition of the enemy forces. Once again this might just be me but merely changing the enemies in slow escalation would have been easier. Once again this might be my personal hatred of mechanics which are not logical at a glance, for example, "why does a mental gaze attack set off explosive barrels?", they even described how the Navigator Eye works in text so they obviously knew. The constant buffing combined with the gimmicks just really, really bore me to death.

3) The in game economy makes no sense, you shouldn't even have a loot system that you care about other than very elite gear you pilfer off of rivals. I just completely breaks it for me when you are hording lasguns when actual Rogue Traders ship the things by the thousands of metric tons. How are frag or krak nades hard to come by for somebody who owns a private vessel? Maybe they should have implemented limited ammo, giving you a reason to scrounge las packs off the dead, while with more powerful weapons like bolters and plasma rifles you're ♥♥♥♥ out of luck. This is even a joke in Dark Heresy, "do you want bolter shells or to eat for the next six months? For Rogue Traders and their lackeys the cost isn't an issue because they can manufacture them on ship, but my point is that it would have been about securing vast quantities of resources combined with very rare loot like say a millennia old plasma pistol you steal of a cult leader. The latter happens to an extent but from my understanding the escalation is such that the loot and shopping aspects of the original concept just vanish.

4) I only got a taste of power scaling but from my understanding it is really nuts, and it kinda makes balancing combat impossible, which to my mind defeats the entire point of a very crunchy and supposedly deadly system.

5) I'm not going to complain about Planetary Management or void combat because unless you have access to the homebrews of dozens of groups of hyper-nerds who independently tried to fix a utterly broken original pen and paper system you're going to have to just do your own thing.

6) The story seems fairly generic, not good not bad, I could see the softball pitch of "it's a Lord of Change you dumbass" from a mile away, assuming that is correct but that's only for people who are obsessive deebs and read codexes for decades. For those going into the setting blind weird ♥♥♥♥ inherent to the setting could be presented quite compellingly here.

7) I see some distinguishing features here, like lingering wounds obviously inspired by the infamous critical hit tables, and giving everybody what are effectively Fate Points to cheat death so long as the party wins the engagement. But I don't know if I like the implementation or not.

8) I'm not a fan of the action economy system but since this diverges so far from the table top I'm not sure the old system would fit any better. So that's pretty neutral.

So in summary do you guys prefer this synergy focused buff-fest where the emphasis is on builds, or would you prefer a more "tactical" style of gameplay focused on gear and much weaker but maybe more impactful leveling because the power creep doesn't really exist? Or am I just an old man yelling at clouds? Is this just Owlcat's style and I should have looked that their games for expectations rather than the title. Would Owlcat break out of this mould if there had been feedback in that direction? And yes I don't preview things because I don't want to ruin surprises, sue me.
Dernière modification de nonyabeezwaz; 18 nov. à 22h14
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nonyabeezwaz a écrit :
The fights are not particularly hard on "unfair" difficultly even going in blind but they are mostly gimmick fights, which is very strange to me as most of the variety in this sort of wargame comes not from unique environmental puzzles or effects but the composition of the enemy forces.

I think this is the core of the problem: you expected a wargame, and got a CRPG instead.

nonyabeezwaz a écrit :
What I'm asking is would anybody else have felt that "ballistic chess" would have both fit the setting better, been more enjoyable, and been far easier to balance than the system as it exists.

Easier to balance, sure. The less moving parts you have, the less chance something will break.

But half the fun i have with this game comes from figuring out how to combine the hundreds of various talents and abilities of the many archetypes to come up with unique powerful combos (which i subsequently ban from use because they are too good, but i digress :) )

That's not to say what you propose would be a bad game, it would just be a different game.
Approaching it purely as a TTRPG is silly. It is a video game with video game mechanics. The system has la rule set that you can learn and bend. The rules are persistent and wont be changed on the fly by the whims of a game master. Unless we count hotfixes to remove popular play styles the developers dont like :D
this is a rpg which is what the fantasy flight game did.,
I have played and run the tt version of this since it came out.
There are issues of course but I really enjoy this.

I liked the scaling of Black Crusade the best, but the setting of RT the best, though with Ascension, Dark Heresy was fun to mix into Rogue Trader
the gameplay is kinda mehh, i wish they would of looked up the archtypes for the Rogue Trader TT and i wish they would of made space marines have their own custom archtype instead of making them arch mil/soldiers. the story it self is really good imo but the constant buffing in combat is tedious. every combat encounter is pretty much the same buff everyone over and over while Abelard & Argenta kill everything on the map while the RT enjoys a nice amasec.
It's a very messy game....the TB isn't as tight as other games and the story is way too wordy. More than half the ♥♥♥♥ written is useless fill.

Most of it is just learning the system which is pretty good....it's just a shame it takes so much time in order to do so. Too many games out there to be playing this for years on end figuring out builds. I mean, unless you use guides. Bug that's more reading on top of the ungodly amount this game throws at you.
Dernière modification de Sgt. Flaw; 20 nov. à 1h54
Well the game is good and introduce many people to 40k.
Sgt. Flaw a écrit :
It's a very messy game....the TB isn't as tight as other games and the story is way too wordy. More than half the ♥♥♥♥ written is useless fill.

Most of it is just learning the system which is pretty good....it's just a shame it takes so much time in order to do so. Too many games out there to be playing this for years on end figuring out builds. I mean, unless you use guides. Bug that's more reading on top of the ungodly amount this game throws at you.
Why would you buy crpg if you don't like to read? Especially owlcat one. Also you don't need guides to complete the game, at least on daring and lower difficulties. You don't need good builds to do it
Riblion a écrit :
Sgt. Flaw a écrit :
It's a very messy game....the TB isn't as tight as other games and the story is way too wordy. More than half the ♥♥♥♥ written is useless fill.

Most of it is just learning the system which is pretty good....it's just a shame it takes so much time in order to do so. Too many games out there to be playing this for years on end figuring out builds. I mean, unless you use guides. Bug that's more reading on top of the ungodly amount this game throws at you.
Why would you buy crpg if you don't like to read? Especially owlcat one. Also you don't need guides to complete the game, at least on daring and lower difficulties. You don't need good builds to do it

Lots of people try to play cRPGs that dont like to think, read or learn how to play o,o
Revan619 a écrit :
Riblion a écrit :
Why would you buy crpg if you don't like to read? Especially owlcat one. Also you don't need guides to complete the game, at least on daring and lower difficulties. You don't need good builds to do it

Lots of people try to play cRPGs that dont like to think, read or learn how to play o,o
The real question would be, why they would buy a game in that category again then. A first timer is excused with them wanting to see if that genre would be something they like, but if I don't like a genre I won't buy a second game in that genre.
More words does not mean your point bears any more weight.

Let me sum up what your actually saying.

WHY IS GAME DIFFERENT WHY IS NOT WHAT I WANTED IN A SYSTEM I ALREADY ADMITTED WAS BENT AND BROKEN BEYOND REASON WHY CHANGE CHANGE BAD WHY DOES THING I CHANGED (you see change is good actually when i do it) PLAY DIFFERENT CHANGE IS BAD.

your asking questions you don't care about the answers or you wouldn't be outright dismissing the game for not taking place on a piece of paper.
nonyabeezwaz a écrit :

1)Though it at first appears to be cover based it really isn't.

The constant buffing combined with the gimmicks just really, really bore me to death.

3) The in game economy makes no sense, you shouldn't even have a loot system that you care about other than very elite gear you pilfer off of rivals.

6) The story seems fairly generic, not good not bad




So in summary do you guys prefer this synergy focused buff-fest


Yes, yes, yes, yes....

and yes
(Merchant) B1tF0x a écrit :
More words does not mean your point bears any more weight.

Let me sum up what your actually saying.

WHY IS GAME DIFFERENT WHY IS NOT WHAT I WANTED IN A SYSTEM I ALREADY ADMITTED WAS BENT AND BROKEN BEYOND REASON WHY CHANGE CHANGE BAD WHY DOES THING I CHANGED (you see change is good actually when i do it) PLAY DIFFERENT CHANGE IS BAD.

your asking questions you don't care about the answers or you wouldn't be outright dismissing the game for not taking place on a piece of paper.

Yes, the FFG system is incredibly broken, but at least it was fun, and you didn’t have to spam abilities pulled out of thin air that the developers implemented because they thought just using actions would be boring. In the end, we got Pathfinder in space instead of a 1:1 adaptation of Rogue Trader like in previous games.

Careers and alternative career ranks from the original TTRPG are much more interesting in terms of narrative color and abilities compared to the piece of absolutely trivial and empty archetypes hastily created. The Space Marine, for some reason, doesn't have its own unique archetype, just like the Navigator. The Sororitas Militant with the archetypes of Archmilitant/Soldier can be tolerated, but they also have their own unique career with their own talents and traits.
Dernière modification de Iria no Onryo; 20 nov. à 23h30
I agree that the infinitely stacking buff system is broken. I much prefer the space combat, which is moslty about positionning, and picking the right ability/weapon at the right time.
It feels a bit like a single ship Battlefleet Gothic, so I cannot complain about it.

Some immersion breaking stuff is that many opponents would be better off without henchmen, as killing them may power party abilities to let them deal much more damage to the main high tiers enemies.

But the setting is still captured well, even though it goes a bit too much into grim derp for me.
Dernière modification de Galdred; 21 nov. à 4h50
u have a terrible analysis of the ttrpg sorry
1: don't think I rolled a pinning test in 3 years of play
2: the navigator eye distorts reality, not just minds. pay attention.
3: u can't manufacture stuff on a standard imperial ship, you just buy it in vast amounts in the ttrpg. some loot shouldn't exist, but uncovering unique and strange items in your travels is *90% of the point*
4: the ttrpg is neither crunchy nor deadly, both because of the level of gear you have available and because it gives a listed cost that all starting characters can afford for "have 500 imperial guardsman do the combat encounter instead of you". Standard damage resistance for starting characters is about the same as weapon fire damage lol. A bolt pistol averages 9 damage with 4 pen and a plain suit of armour on a starting character can hit 10-12 DR OUTSIDE of cover. You should be in cover, it's a heavily cover-based system.
5: u keep saying that the system is bad but it actually works fine (not WELL but fine, the main issue is the book's poor formatting) and needs minimal homebrew. Saying you created a "perfectly balanced" version pretty much affirms that you don't quite get the design principles you're trying to appeal to, because there's no such thing.
6: the main antagonist is not a lord of change. it's not even tzeentchian.
7: ok
8: the tabletop action economy system is genuinely stupid and probably the bit you do need to homebrew lol
9: "a more "tactical" style of gameplay focused on gear and much weaker but maybe more impactful levelling" hon did you play Dark Heresy a lot and no Rogue Trader ever?
Dernière modification de anaris; 21 nov. à 6h33
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