@slein, i might be a bit late here, but if its idling even with no coolant being fed its already pre chilling itself down, i tend to try to have an automation setup(even a simple switch) to it before that to reduce the pre chill they get before the actual starts goes in.

Hi, I have a question: when the coolant starts running trough, the pipe on the output always breaks for the first couple of seconds.

I use insulated pipes and polluted water as coolant. I only let it run above 10 degrees C. The radiator is used in space.

Am I doing something stupid? I think this is behaviour from the base game, not from you mod. But I can't figure out where I'm going wrong.

If it's the coolant just freezing in the pipes, how can I prevent this?

2.4:
- added russian localisation by DarkEvil

Thanks for the elaborate explanation! I'll be patient then. :)

so that would need a new type of building that is built from refined metal for the pipe heat transfer and a specifically selected radiator material with a high emissivity.
and that takes a lot of time for making concepts and developing, something that is currently in short supply for me (that "in a few days" was written before I was fully aware of the scope)

additionally, that little time I have for modding is split between multiple larger projects already, namely porting the Duplicity dupe editor into the game in DSS, finishing Oni Retro Edition and the always looming space stations that still need hundreds of hours until completion

the thing about it is - its not realistic.
then I made this mod 2 years ago, I simply copied the "refined metals" recipe cost from skyrunners old (and disfunctional) radiator mod.
since then, it also used a flat (and pretty high) emissivity value for each built radiator, no dependent on the material
turns out - emissivity of metalls is fairly bad overall, with ceramics being much better, so simply turning on relistic emissivity values would severely nerf existing radiators.

@Sgt_Imalas: May I ask what's physically off with the current simulation of the radiators' emissivity? I've been burning for that announced update which is meant to correct it. :)

v2.3.1:
- added chinese localisation by Chinchou
- fixed a crash issue with the temperature transfer

oh, so that was it.

Anyways, Big Thanks for the mod !
And big thanks for carrying too !

there will also be another update for this mod in a few days that properly implements emissivity

rocketry expanded. currently in alpha

...Space stations?

v2.3.0:
- fixed a bug that led to a massive amount of unintentional heat deletion when using low shc materials
- added config option to revert to the old function for ^ for build compatibility
- added config option for radiation multiplier: this can be used to artifically increase/decrease the heat radiation efficiency
- radiators can now function at reduced efficiency if they are only partially exposed to space
- normal radiators can now be placed inside space stations from RE

so... the shc tooltip itself is not wrong.
it just so happens that the heat transfer method itself deletes a lot of heat based on (1-shc of the material) due to a missing multiplier

The radiating part itself is completely independent from SHC and TC.
Your postet link explains it very well actually.

What he meant with the "SHC depending cooling" is a bit tricky.
He wrote that the "cooling time is longer, because of the energy stored inside"
But if you stay at the same temperatur, it is SHC independent.

(If you want to cool 1000kg of water from 70°C to 60°C, you have to:)
(Cool 1000kg of water from 70°C to 60°C and)
(Cool 800kg of aluminium from 70°C to 60°C !!!)
(In oni buildings have only 1/5 of the mass btw, so it is only 160kg alu)

If you want to make it roughly correct, it should be SHC TC independent, but!
This is oni ... There is so much magic heat generation/deletion happenig ....
Just changing the tooltip would be good enough, I think.

PS: The 'units' page from the oni wiki is really good, btw!
PS2: Your mod is really nice overall !

That means you need 4 kDTU for a full pipe for 0,1°C change.

For the aluminium radiator it is correct.
(It cools ~0,1°C and displays ~4 kDTU cooling)

For the gold radiators it is not correct.
(It cools ~0,8°C and displays ~5 kDTU cooling)

Cooling water by ~0,8°C needs ~32 kDTU !
The tooltip is just wrong.

It would be nice for new mod users if you could change it.
You have a lot of different options:
1) Just disable the tooltip. (No wrong numbers will be displayed)
2) Change the kDTU to the right numbers.
(When gold radiates 32 kDTU away, it should display 32 kDTU)
3) Maybe rework the formular for cooling.
4) ?

Most of it was correct, exept the last line.
But that is not the problem.
(And I should have explained it better, sorry)

The problem I had (and new mod users will have) is the display of the 'kDTU'
The tooltip from gold radiators display wrong kDTU numbers.

kDTU is a made up unit from oni for 'termal energy'
'termal energy' is a form of energy. So it should follow some rules.

If a system takes "4kDTU in" and gives "4kDTU out", it balances out.
The temperature will not change. Thats how it works.
(The 'units' page in oni wiki explains it better)

If you have temperature change, it gets a bit more complex.
Water has around 4 DTU/g/°C specific heat capacity (SHC)
That equals 4 kDTU/kg/°C. So for 1°C and 1kg you need 4kDTU.
For 10kg and 1°C it is 40 kDTU.
For 10kg and 0,1°C it is 4 kDTU.
(One full pipe has 10kg)

according to this post, this is accurate behavior:
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/456738/how-does-the-heat-capacity-of-an-object-come-into-play-in-thermal-radiation

aluminium has 8x the heat capacity of gold. in its current implementation, the heat radiation is only affected by radiation area, not by specific heat capacity, so the aluminium radiator exchanges heat way faster with the liquid, but the amount radiated away is solely determined by the temperature (and area).
Due to the capacity being way higher, the temperature reduction with the same amount of kDtus radiated away is a lot smaller

thats atleast how the radiation is currently implemented.

An aluminium Radiator cools my saltwater by around 0.1°C
A gold Radiator cools my saltwater by around 0.9 - 1°C

Why?

(Same loop right next to each other.)
(With a Liquid Tank right before)

Why does the golden one works around 10x better? Both should do around 4kDTU ...

Other had similar numbers. See other commends:
CuRaRe 16. Juli 2022 um 13:08
Kaedys 28. Juni 2023 um 23:36

https://gtm.you1.cn/id/fallout76sucks/screenshot/2133076386243514834/

PSA!!! the conduction panel trick works along the stretch of the radiator panel allowing passive cooling of surface infrastructure without needing fluid flow through the radiator

This is a really good idea, can we get a tiny version, say, 4 blocks tall? And can it be a background building?

Just what I needed, thank you! This mod really should be in the base game.

you have to use the rocket version for rocket interiors

if it is in a ship where you melted the walls can you still place it or do you use the non rocket version to be in vacuum?

it has to be inside vacuum, the small amount of POx disables it.
space exposure inside rockets is a bit buggy if you construct it, it fixes itself on a reload

Reloading the game seemed to fix it. Hopefully I don't need to reload it every time ;d

Is this broken now? I got a small rocket and the radiator won't work. The outside of the rocket has Space exposure, but also polluted oxygen in trace amount because of a Wall Toilet. The Rocket Radiator keeps giving an Error: Not In Space. Anyone else have this problem?

thats what i would want @kaedys for me its a non wanted feature when the thing still exchanges heat when its -150 because it did not close quickly :) and the petroleum freezes and breaks the pipes when i wanted it -45.
but thats just me thinking and knowing it would still freeze up if the radiator is -150 :/ so it might not be a good thing unless it can stop interacting or have some way of only allowing down to XYZ temp?

Much appreciated!

@mementh Why would you want to block the fluids from going it when it's off? That's easily one of the most annoying parts about an aquatuner, the need to run a bridge for when it's "off". In fact, there's a new mod on the workshop that fixes that silliness for the aquatuner. Now, the radiator does, I believe, continue to exchange heat with the fluid running through it even when turned off by automation, but it won't radiate heat anymore, so the only temperature difference you'd see is whatever difference there is between the fluid and the radiator when it is shut off. With the changes Sgt_Imalas just pushed, the output temperature of the fluid should be a very good proxy for the temperature of the radiator, so you can just slap a pipe thermal sensor on the output line and disable the radiator once it hits the temp you're looking for. The fluid will continue to flow, but it should not continue to cool down (assuming it's in a vacuum, of course).

is there any way to have this cool to X and not farther? like what you can do with standard aquatuners? the off signal is "instant" and blocks things from going in not just close the radiator?

2.2:
- fixed thermal conductivity between liquid and radiator following insulated pipe logic
- fixed thermal mass not being taken into calculation
- improved performance of some internal methods
- replaced the thermal exchange formula with one that makes sense

you are correct (in theory).
I went back into the code to check a few things and found a few bugs with it - the whole heat transfer between liquid and radiator has been broken the whole time, making the whole buffer part not really functioning.
I will release an update soon that fixes that

Am I correct in believing that high heat capacity and high conductivity are the targets for the material for the radiator, though? The conductivity seems obvious, my theory with the capacity was that it gives the radiator a deeper "buffer" of thermal energy for exchanging and radiating, which should, at least I would think, make the temperature more stable and the average temperature differential between the radiator and coolant smaller.

no, the liquid exchanges heat directly with the building while getting pumped through.
Heat dispersion follows real life heat radiation physics, so the hotter the liquid (and with it the radiator), the more heat gets "radiated into space" (deleted)
the heat exchange between liquid and radiator is affected by the material and it equalizes over time, not instantly

Question: do I need to use / does it help if I use radiant piping on the connections to the radiator? It's pretty common for me to see several degrees difference between the fluid output and the radiator itself. For example, fluid coming in at 23.1 C, coming out at 22.9C, but the radiator itself is at 20.1 C. I understand that the radiator itself is not supposed to provide a ton of cooling, since it doesn't require power. I'm just trying to find ways to increase the heat transfer between the fluid being piped and the radiator itself. Per some of your prior comments here, it sounded like the intent was for the radiator to directly equalize temp with the fluid, then radiate from there, so I'm confused to see such a difference between the two. This is with an Aluminum radiator (I assumed it'd be one of the better materials to make it out of, due to high heat capacity and excellent conductivity), currently using polluted water as the coolant.

Right, because ONI definitely has a super realistic thermodynamics model. Oh well.

the radiators work off the irl heat radiation formula, there wont be any configuration to it
if you want heat deletion for power, use a mod like https://gtm.you1.cn/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2713769536

Can we get a config file for adjusting the heat dissipation rate? Would also be nice if there was a config for it requiring power (and how much). I'd like to scale up how potent they are, since they seem awful slow currently, but I'd like to offset that with having a power cost, so they aren't just free heat dissipation.

Excellent

I understand the logic behind the devs not implementing thermal radiation as a game mechanic since the asteroid would just freeze over, but it seems kind of silly having to spend so much time and effort designing your base just so your dupes don't get cooked.

I wanna play dammit

Absolute love it, finally space expansion's interesting and worthwhile, not as much a fucking chore, and even more importantly, fun. Thank you for the mod, please, keep up the work!

Love this mod so much. Reasonable heat management, without being ridiculous OP like the thermoelectric generator from advanced generators mod

Thanks for the update, one of my favorite mods.

pushed another update, should fix crash on prev. branch

mod crashes

Update 2.1:
- Removed Medium Habitat with two radiators from rocket build menu (existing modules still work)
- added new radiator variant for rocket interiors that has to be placed next to a rocket interior wall

any chance of the modified spacefarer module options but for the rocketry expanded big spacefarer modules?

Taking too long to cool? Can you help me?

Amazing. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!