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melon 19 Nov, 2023 @ 6:39am
3
Why did combat peak at Yakuza 0?
This is a 100% genuine question and something which has sincerely baffled me for a while. I know that people don't play these games for pristine action combat. Traditionally the combat is mostly just a time waster in between heat moves, which are its strong point for being entertaining the first few times, though for some reason the heat generation and opportunity for variety are pretty low in this game too. I just don't understand why they improved it so much for 0 and then abandoned those improvements.

Yakuza 0 was my first Yakuza game and the combat was actually pretty good. It feels like you're in control, just about everything can be reasonably dodged, and the game is built around that by giving you bonuses for flawless defeats and super strong enemies that destroy you if they land even one or two hits. The combat styles were engaging and interesting to expand and master, which paid off because many enemies hit pretty hard outside of rare special attacks. Since then, I have played several more Yakuza games and none of that was there. The character does not want to turn to face the enemy or dodge on command, attacks are random and abrupt in a way that is not fun to try to counter or avoid, they ignore hits and end your combos whenever they feel like it and often immediately punish your successful grabs by breaking out of them instantly and tossing you on the ground, which like other knockdowns has an annoying slow animation.

Obviously, I didn't rely on games released before 0 having combat as good as its was, but then I tried 6, and Judgment, and now this, and they were all disappointing in comparison. Not only does it feel mindless relative to 0, but they took out entire whole features like the encounter grading bonuses and never put them back in. Is there any explanation? Did people hate 0's for some reason? Did it have low clear percentages because people found it too hard?

I still like most of what makes up the games in the series, but I wonder if I should keep getting my hopes up for good combat. Sincerely interested if there's any particular reason for this. Anybody know?
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Originally posted by fishnpeas:
Because Toshihiro Nagoshi, Daisuke Sato and others have now left the studio, whoever is left can't seem to make good combat.

Looks like we will have to wait for Nagoshi Studios to come up with the new game he is working on to get something good again.
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Showing 1-15 of 61 comments
ketrub 19 Nov, 2023 @ 8:17am 
It didn't
#1
joobslatt 19 Nov, 2023 @ 9:05am 
5's combat is better, Kiwami's combat is better, Gaiden's combat is better, and Lost Judgment's combat is miles better
Last edited by joobslatt; 19 Nov, 2023 @ 9:07am
#2
Titan 19 Nov, 2023 @ 10:16am 
Kiwami's combat is literally just a straight improved version of 0's. Gaiden and both Judgment games are also much better, more refined and well designed combat systems. Lost Judgment especially.
#3
Zirael 19 Nov, 2023 @ 10:27am 
if you've played ANYTHING after Y0, you'd know combat did NOT peak in Zero. Lost Judgment is still the best we've ever gotten thus far.
#4
13thPalace 19 Nov, 2023 @ 10:57am 
For me, 0 is the peak on the old engine, while Lost Judgment is the peak on the new engine. Between 0 and LJ, I don't know which one I would rate as better. But in terms of mainline numbered games, 0 is still easily the best.
#5
Legato Bluesummers 19 Nov, 2023 @ 2:52pm 
Y0 is great but you can button mash through the entire game. Some people clearly like that as it's very easy, especially when you max out beast style. weapons do ridiculous damage as well. Gaiden has a bit more nuance in Dragon (Yakuza) style from 6 and K2 but i actually like it. It's more streamlined and a bit more difficult to just button mash through mobs. The best combat imo is in Y3 because you have to use a lot of skills to get through the game, especially on bosses. It's by far the most challenging game in the series, barring the few I haven't played like Kenzen and FotNS since I don't know how those play
#6
The author of this thread has indicated that this post answers the original topic.
fishnpeas 19 Nov, 2023 @ 3:13pm 
Because Toshihiro Nagoshi, Daisuke Sato and others have now left the studio, whoever is left can't seem to make good combat.

Looks like we will have to wait for Nagoshi Studios to come up with the new game he is working on to get something good again.
#7
romik0 19 Nov, 2023 @ 4:12pm 
LJ and Gaiden are peak, K1 is also amazing, 0 is great but Majima takes the cake for combat
#8
melon 19 Nov, 2023 @ 4:14pm 
Thanks for the answers. Looking forward to trying Lost Judgment now. Shame the issue might be due to devs leaving, though it's still odd that they decided not to include certain basic features. Hope they figure it out sooner or later.
#9
Legato Bluesummers 19 Nov, 2023 @ 4:21pm 
Originally posted by melon:
Thanks for the answers. Looking forward to trying Lost Judgment now. Shame the issue might be due to devs leaving, though it's still odd that they decided not to include certain basic features. Hope they figure it out sooner or later.
It's debatable how much sway Nagoshi or Sato had over the gameplay, at the end of their tenures they were operating as upper management with Nagoshi being the Chief Creative Director and Executive Producer and Sato was the producer. In japan these titles are a bit different from what I understand. Normally a producer manages a project, sort of like a project owner, whereas a director would have their hands in the various workings of the game. from what I understand, the last game that was truly overseen by Nagoshi was Judgment. ofc he could have said yes or no to anything so it's not exactly clear how much influence he truly had in his last few years with Sega. Some people have said it was minimal.
#10
melon 19 Nov, 2023 @ 4:25pm 
Originally posted by Legato Bluesummers:
Originally posted by melon:
Thanks for the answers. Looking forward to trying Lost Judgment now. Shame the issue might be due to devs leaving, though it's still odd that they decided not to include certain basic features. Hope they figure it out sooner or later.
It's debatable how much sway Nagoshi or Sato had over the gameplay, at the end of their tenures they were operating as upper management with Nagoshi being the Chief Creative Director and Executive Producer and Sato was the producer. In japan these titles are a bit different from what I understand. Normally a producer manages a project, sort of like a project owner, whereas a director would have their hands in the various workings of the game. from what I understand, the last game that was truly overseen by Nagoshi was Judgment. ofc he could have said yes or no to anything so it's not exactly clear how much influence he truly had in his last few years with Sega. Some people have said it was minimal.
It's very weird what big steps back they ended up taking for any reason.
#11
DilTinman 19 Nov, 2023 @ 5:10pm 
Originally posted by fishnpeas:
Because Toshihiro Nagoshi, Daisuke Sato and others have now left the studio, whoever is left can't seem to make good combat.

Looks like we will have to wait for Nagoshi Studios to come up with the new game he is working on to get something good again.

You uh, do realize this is the first game that's been made since them leaving that isn't a remake/remaster, right? K1, 6, K2, Lost Paradise, Judgement, 7, and Lost Judgement were all made with Nagoshi and everyone still in the dev team.

And this isn't even touching the fact that they had probably very little to do with the combat designs of the series.
Last edited by DilTinman; 19 Nov, 2023 @ 5:11pm
#12
Scorpion 19 Nov, 2023 @ 6:53pm 
Originally posted by DilTinman:
Originally posted by fishnpeas:
Because Toshihiro Nagoshi, Daisuke Sato and others have now left the studio, whoever is left can't seem to make good combat.

Looks like we will have to wait for Nagoshi Studios to come up with the new game he is working on to get something good again.

You uh, do realize this is the first game that's been made since them leaving that isn't a remake/remaster, right? K1, 6, K2, Lost Paradise, Judgement, 7, and Lost Judgement were all made with Nagoshi and everyone still in the dev team.

And this isn't even touching the fact that they had probably very little to do with the combat designs of the series.
The last sentence just proved the fact that you have no idea how RGG works
#13
Legato Bluesummers 19 Nov, 2023 @ 6:56pm 
I've read quite a bit about how people say RGG works, so go ahead and enlighten us.
#14
Scorpion 19 Nov, 2023 @ 7:03pm 
Originally posted by Legato Bluesummers:
I've read quite a bit about how people say RGG works, so go ahead and enlighten us.
Idk about western yakuza fans. But for eastern asian fans it's common knowledge. Dudes like Nagoshi and Yokoyama had very huge impact on combat designs and it's a fact. Combat part of this game and Ishin is directed and heavily influenced by not only Yokoyama but Sakamoto too. And obviously Sakamoto is not a great combat designer/director.
Last edited by Scorpion; 19 Nov, 2023 @ 7:05pm
#15
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Date Posted: 19 Nov, 2023 @ 6:39am
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