I'd like to know the same thing. There was a lot of talk about new and different scenarios towards the end of 2023 but no update nor further news came up.

Me too. Please devs, give us an answer. Thanks.

I'd also like to know. It's been over a month since the OP asked this.

This isn't the only SGS title where it has been a struggle to get updates, fixes, or communication from the devs. I'm about to give up on their Korean War game.

Hi all !

Even if we (SGS) have the support of a developer, when it comes to designing a game, we're generally on our own. Even if I had the invaluable technical advice of Major Bellizzi, even if I didn't start project basis in the editor, I basically did NATO mostly on my own.

So the work is colossal.

The game editor is complex to master, and not very ergonomic. Designing NATO took me over two years and then, I also worked on the side. For Hué, without working on the side, between research and implementation, it took me almost a year and a half... And besides that, I also have a life.

To give you an idea, over about three years, I have precisely 4548 hours in the editor. And this time is to be considered as actually being in front of the editor in question (and not picking strawberries). Add to this the testing for NATO, which, because of its scale, required a colossal investment/time: 485 hours. Fall Weiss, only 43 hours (but about double that in testing via another SGS support before the Steam page was released). Hué, only 25.8 hours (but about fifty via another SGS before the Steam page was released), so around 70 hours overall.

It's a good thing we've got volunteers to help us test, because without them, it would be impossible (but that doesn't mean that as a designer... A good thing, yes. But, well, you've got to test it yourself too as designer.

And all that doesn't take into account hundreds of hours (literally) of research (for each game, I do tons of research), of everything I do on paper not on my computer (note-taking, drafting event trees)...

No communication ? You're right and I'm sorry. This is not incorrectness, but impossibility. And we're not frisky young men (I'm not anymore, and neither are my comrades in SGS ; we have families and obligations in relation to that, we're not spared from health problems, some of our little team are still working at other jobs, etc.). I speak for myself here, but I can't I can't dedicate a lot of time to designing a game (in all process), then communicating and having a life on the side (which also involves resting or relaxing).

Having said that, I understand your dissatisfaction - it's normal and I don't blame you.

I also have a problem: I write at length. Out of passion (never to lecture). If I'm short, I feel like I'm disrespecting players, and then I like to explain things honestly. As a gamer, I really appreciate it when developers communicate about the problems they're facing, why they don't seem to be communicating, etc. So, yes, I understand you about that too. But inevitably, this takes time. In this case, I'll have spent almost an hour writing this message, making sure my English is correct (which is not my native language).


Hué is released : from Monday, while I'll work on Dien Bien Phu, I'll start updating NATO and then Fall Weiss. I'm going to be more present on this forum as I'll work on the update, but then, after the release of the update, you'll be seeing less of me here again (and I'll be on Fall Weiss forum, for... Fall Weiss update !) :D The important thing is that in the end, once the update is here, you'll see that despite various difficulties that aren't your problem (and I understand that too, it's not a question of whining, just of stating the facts clinically), well yes, in the end (and even if very late), the updates do arrive, with some nice content added.

So yes, I'm very late. And it's not the fault of the SGS boss or the SGS team. It's my own fault, because I don't move as fast as I did twenty years ago. The head of SGS could have demolished me with a crunch, as is common in the video game industry. Instead, he knows how to be attentive to the few people who make games, preferring them to prioritize their family life, their health and so much the worse if things don't turn out as planned.

It's courageous, because in the end, it's hard to imagine that the delay is just the designer's, and so, inevitably, we say to ourselves that it's SGS's fault... So... Well, no, if there's a delay and a lack of communication, it's mainly my fault, because even if I want to make good games so that gamers find them satisfying, well, being alone on each project that falls to me, delays can easily accumulate.

Anyway, I saw this post just as I was starting to prepare my feedback on the NATO update, and it seemed crucial to respond quickly; as it happens, work on the update starts on Monday. More than xix months late (because I wanted historically accurate maps of Hué and Dien Bien Phu.

Thanks for your comments (not stupid, not rude) ; you were right for asking.

See you soon, and have a great weekend !

Originally posted by Aetius72:

Hi all !

Even if we (SGS) have the support of a developer, when it comes to designing a game, we're generally on our own. Even if I had the invaluable technical advice of Major Bellizzi, even if I didn't start project basis in the editor, I basically did NATO mostly on my own.

So the work is colossal.

The game editor is complex to master, and not very ergonomic. Designing NATO took me over two years and then, I also worked on the side. For Hué, without working on the side, between research and implementation, it took me almost a year and a half... And besides that, I also have a life.

To give you an idea, over about three years, I have precisely 4548 hours in the editor. And this time is to be considered as actually being in front of the editor in question (and not picking strawberries). Add to this the testing for NATO, which, because of its scale, required a colossal investment/time: 485 hours. Fall Weiss, only 43 hours (but about double that in testing via another SGS support before the Steam page was released). Hué, only 25.8 hours (but about fifty via another SGS before the Steam page was released), so around 70 hours overall.

It's a good thing we've got volunteers to help us test, because without them, it would be impossible (but that doesn't mean that as a designer... A good thing, yes. But, well, you've got to test it yourself too as designer.

And all that doesn't take into account hundreds of hours (literally) of research (for each game, I do tons of research), of everything I do on paper not on my computer (note-taking, drafting event trees)...

No communication ? You're right and I'm sorry. This is not incorrectness, but impossibility. And we're not frisky young men (I'm not anymore, and neither are my comrades in SGS ; we have families and obligations in relation to that, we're not spared from health problems, some of our little team are still working at other jobs, etc.). I speak for myself here, but I can't I can't dedicate a lot of time to designing a game (in all process), then communicating and having a life on the side (which also involves resting or relaxing).

Having said that, I understand your dissatisfaction - it's normal and I don't blame you.

I also have a problem: I write at length. Out of passion (never to lecture). If I'm short, I feel like I'm disrespecting players, and then I like to explain things honestly. As a gamer, I really appreciate it when developers communicate about the problems they're facing, why they don't seem to be communicating, etc. So, yes, I understand you about that too. But inevitably, this takes time. In this case, I'll have spent almost an hour writing this message, making sure my English is correct (which is not my native language).


Hué is released : from Monday, while I'll work on Dien Bien Phu, I'll start updating NATO and then Fall Weiss. I'm going to be more present on this forum as I'll work on the update, but then, after the release of the update, you'll be seeing less of me here again (and I'll be on Fall Weiss forum, for... Fall Weiss update !) :D The important thing is that in the end, once the update is here, you'll see that despite various difficulties that aren't your problem (and I understand that too, it's not a question of whining, just of stating the facts clinically), well yes, in the end (and even if very late), the updates do arrive, with some nice content added.

So yes, I'm very late. And it's not the fault of the SGS boss or the SGS team. It's my own fault, because I don't move as fast as I did twenty years ago. The head of SGS could have demolished me with a crunch, as is common in the video game industry. Instead, he knows how to be attentive to the few people who make games, preferring them to prioritize their family life, their health and so much the worse if things don't turn out as planned.

It's courageous, because in the end, it's hard to imagine that the delay is just the designer's, and so, inevitably, we say to ourselves that it's SGS's fault... So... Well, no, if there's a delay and a lack of communication, it's mainly my fault, because even if I want to make good games so that gamers find them satisfying, well, being alone on each project that falls to me, delays can easily accumulate.

Anyway, I saw this post just as I was starting to prepare my feedback on the NATO update, and it seemed crucial to respond quickly; as it happens, work on the update starts on Monday. More than xix months late (because I wanted historically accurate maps of Hué and Dien Bien Phu.

Thanks for your comments (not stupid, not rude) ; you were right for asking.

See you soon, and have a great weekend ! :mirage:

According to me you have nothing to be sorry about.
Merci beaucoup pour ton honnêteté, Aetius et bonne chance!

Originally posted by Generaloberst Yukari Akiyama:

According to me you have nothing to be sorry about.
Merci beaucoup pour ton honnêteté, Aetius et bonne chance!

Hi Generaloberst_Yukari_Akiyama !

Many thanks for your understing !

Anyway, yes, starting Monday, I'll resume reading (and answering) posts here, I'll list the bugs mentioned (for those not already in the list). And I'll respond as I go along (probably not to everything in one day).

All the while making progress on Dien Bien Phu (and continuing to follow up on Hué).

Then again I'll leave NATO (temporarily) to be on the SGS Fall Weiss forum, preparing the update for the said-game. And I'll definitely be back on NATO in a few months after (trying to keep the delay to a minimum).

I'm just insisting for other players (you've obviously understood) : if I don't communicate, it's not SGS's fault and it's not out of disrespect, it's just that I can't be everywhere and that even if there are bugs inmy games, that doesn't mean they aren't painstakingly made and tested (and when you're few, you obviously always miss out on stupid bugs :D Gremlins everywhere !). Researching, designing, developing and communicating on your own for a large part of the process (although this may change a little in the future) means that some aspects are inevitably sacrificed (in this case, communication).

But NATO is not abandoned, and neither is Fall Weiss!

Thanks again for your understanding, it's very kind of you! :)

Have a great week-end !

Originally posted by Aetius72:

Hi all !

Even if we (SGS) have the support of a developer, when it comes to designing a game, we're generally on our own. Even if I had the invaluable technical advice of Major Bellizzi, even if I didn't start project basis in the editor, I basically did NATO mostly on my own.

[snip]

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, and I wanted to give my feedback. How SGS manages its business is of course its business not mine, but as a customer I have been put off buying other SGS games as I don't agree with the quantity/quality trade-off it makes. I would prefer fewer, more polished games, and after my experience with NATO I haven't bought any other SGS games as I feel significant bugs have been left for too long. I've reported this elsewhere, but the VP bug, as an example, completely undermined my enjoyment of the game.

If I felt the overall quality of the games were higher, I'd happily buy all of them. Obviously, SGS has done its own sums and this way of working works best for SGS, but I have limited gaming time and don't want to invest hours into a game to find it has some major issues that take months to fix.

However, I look forward to returning to NATO after the update.

Hello Constans,

Ah, well you're right and on the other hand, tempo of releases made sense.

In fact, it's closely related. If we hadn't released games the way we did (and I didn't work on all of them, just the work on NATO, Fall Weiss, Hué and the beginnings of Dien Bien Phu was considerable, as I've already explained) we wouldn't have been able to slow down now.

This is particularly true for me : if I have the space to return to NATO, it's because the games I've designed (or in which I've played a major part) are selling well. As a result, I'll be working on fewer games and without a deadline. An example that illustrates this and corresponds to what you're pointing out : Dien Bien Phu was scheduled for... May 8, 2024. It won't be released any time soon. The deadlines envisaged for SGS Gulf Strike and SGS France 1940 have been lifted.

Philippe Thibaut (the boss of SGS) wants to return to what you're talking about: fewer games for more time to refine and improve existing ones. We've recently decided to go back to quality rather than quantity, because quantity has given us room to maneuver... Not to mention taking into account the fatigue of the designers who work/sell with him.

Of course, there are a lot of projects, but again, we are back to taking time. I still won't be able to be everywhere, so it's good that I sleep and relax from time to time. And technically, I can't take care of working on a game with short lead times, making fixes, communicating. But as for the rhythm of the releases, especially for the games I'm taking care of, well, I've now got space (and space to work on the released games). Which is great.

So, in a few months, when 'you, once you've seen that indeed, maybe the idea of buying all our games will come back ! That said, thank you for your comment, which I found honest and full of common sense without being aggressive.

Best regards,
Laurent

Any updates on the update?

It's been well over a year since the last update (May 2023) and aside from this and one other vague message IIRC ("Rome wasn't built in a day"), we haven't heard anything.

With respect & despite your assurances above, both the update 'schedule' and sporadic communication aren't particularly trust or confidence building. Like most of your customers I play a lot of indie strategy games by small under-resourced teams, yet they all seem to do a decent job communicating timelines & patching their games. Honestly this problem is even worse for SGS's Korean War title, which makes me think it's just an overall systemic issue at SGS. Quantity over quality as you admit above.

Again - major documented bugs & balance issues, plus promised content, it's been more than a year. That's a long time. FWIW I wouldn't be commenting here if I didn't think the game had great potential, but it needs a lot of work.

update the doc and dedicated to nato's nightmare would be a great step forward
i want to know why my stack of reds is sometimes totally blow up by nato and sometimes it's totally the contrary
at least publish tables of units with modifiers and all of those things, as wargamers we will manage with that.

thank you

ps

I'm telling you this because it's reality: I like the subjects of your games and several interest me but my experience with nato means that I don't buy them

Yea would really be nice to get an update on this. I have held off buying anymore of their titles until this gets its update.

Originally posted by Billy Waugh:

Yea would really be nice to get an update on this. I have held off buying anymore of their titles until this gets its update.

Agree with this. The games look interesting and I'd be tempted to buy more except they all seem unfinished whether that's bugs or a lack of documentation.

For my part, I played many hours through NATO's Nightmare last summer (2023), and while I had a few technical problems, I certainly did not experience anything game-breaking, like a few mention here. It's hard for me to understand some of the experiences shared here, to be honest.

I think it's an excellent game. My interest is currently in another historical period, but as soon as my Cold War-gone-hot bug comes back to bite, I'll be heading straight for this game again. Nothing else does what this does. I had an incredible time playing as NATO in the CENTAG campaign and soon I'll be back to play NORTHAG before taking on the madness of all of Europe.

Also, I'd love it if SGS were to ever put this much historical thought and development into a Napoleonic game, with differences in leaders, political cards, events, battle cards to make use of common Napoleonic tactics on the battlefield with artillery, cavalry charges, infantry formations/tactics, naval battles with ships of the line, etc., different starting dates such as 1796 in Italy, 1798 in Egypt, 1805 Empire grand campaign, 1809 campaign, Peninsular War campaign, 1812 invasion of Russia, 1813 War of German Liberation, 1814 Napoleon at bay, etc. It would be a Day 1 purchase for me, even in early access (which I don't normally do).

And this is to take nothing away from this beautiful NATO game. I would love to see it excel. As I am on record stating at the beginning on these forums, if some kind of North Atlantic naval component could be added to this game, maybe with separate side maps depicting naval zones, simulating various types of submarine operations, carrier operations, convoys, Marine landings, Soviet bomber strikes vs. US Navy interceptors, capturing Iceland, Norway, or even the UK, and then have this North Atlantic battle impact how the war in Europe is progressively playing out....Well, I'd buy this game all over again to have this added.

Just my two cents...

Massive interview with lots of details of what is currently cooking : https://www.wargamer.fr/sgs-faq-et-explications-sur-sgs-natos-nightmare-v1-5/

(in French, but it's 2024, lots of translation tools around)
This patch is going to be massive, DLC sized.

Originally posted by Palpat:

Massive interview with lots of details of what is currently cooking : https://www.wargamer.fr/sgs-faq-et-explications-sur-sgs-natos-nightmare-v1-5/

(in French, but it's 2024, lots of translation tools around)
This patch is going to be massive, DLC sized.

good news (this one and the content of the interview) !